Dialogue with "Contradictor" Wang Jianshuo: The issue of the generalization of Web3 terminology is serious, and many people have already given up their ability to speak plainly

Respondent: Wang Jianshuo

Interviewer: Zhu Enmin, Chain Catcher

In any emerging industry, there are always voices of doubt. Since May of this year, a new "contrarian" has emerged in the crypto industry—Wang Jianshuo. For three consecutive months, he has frequently fired shots at the crypto industry through his personal social media platforms and industry media, intensively expressing his doubts and judgments. Typical viewpoints include "The relationship between Web and Web3 is like that between Lei Feng and the Lei Feng Pagoda" and "Web3 is not the next version of the internet", among others.

Is Wang Jianshuo a professional critic? Clearly not. He has many identity labels: he is the top scorer in a single subject in the college entrance examination in Henan Province, chairman of Baixing.com, and a former employee of Microsoft and eBay. As early as 1995, when he was still a college freshman, he began to engage with and study the internet, making him a bona fide internet native. He is also an IT commentator, columnist, and one of the earliest bloggers in the Chinese-speaking world, having started writing bilingual blogs in 2002, offering his observations and thoughts on various fields.

In addition, Wang Jianshuo has recently acquired two more labels: Web3 novice and contrarian. Driven by his perception and interest in the wave of blockchain technology, he has invested a significant amount of time in research over the past three months, questioning and judging the confusion of terms, misconceptions, and misinformation in the crypto industry based on logic and facts.

In late August, Chain Catcher invited Wang Jianshuo for a dialogue. During the nearly two-hour conversation, Wang's candor, calmness, and penchant for analogies left a deep impression. He has a particular obsession with words, preferring to be called Jianshuo rather than Teacher Wang, and he will refuse to answer questions he hasn't deeply considered.

In the dialogue with Wang Jianshuo, Chain Catcher attempts to present the problems he has discovered in the crypto industry since researching blockchain, the reasons behind them, his learning and thinking methods, and his suggestions and thoughts on industry development. Below is the full text of the dialogue.

Wang Jianshuo at the Dali Wamao Summer event. Image source | WeChat Official Account: Wang Jianshuo

Chain Catcher: When did you start to become curious about the crypto industry, and what drove your interest?

Wang Jianshuo: My attention to the crypto industry isn't particularly early. I first downloaded a wallet and tried mining Bitcoin when it was first created, but I quickly abandoned it and didn't continue to follow it. The next time I paid attention was around 2017 or 2018, when I basically learned about the fundamental workings of Bitcoin and Ethereum's smart contracts, etc. I really invested more time around May of this year, which is related to my desire to write articles for my public account and conduct in-depth research on certain topics.

In the process of technology promotion, there is always a group of early adopters, including myself, who are inherently interested in new technologies and trends.

Chain Catcher: Since you started engaging with the crypto industry, you have consistently questioned new terms like Web3 and the metaverse. What problems do these new terms have?

Wang Jianshuo: Like any new industry, there are too many new terms in the crypto industry, but they still lack specific definitions.** Especially in the early stages of development, people are particularly eager to hear new terms, and after listening to others' explanations, they feel an impulse to explain it to others, but in fact, they are spreading misinformation, perpetuating many errors.

In my view, Web3 is a very inaccurate term, essentially suggesting two things: first, the essence of Web3 is the Web, which is fundamentally incorrect; second, Web3 is the third version of the Web, or that Web3 is the next version of the internet, which is even more absurd.

The term "metaverse" is also overly grand and inappropriate; its biggest problem is that it conveys too little information, making it seem like saying nothing at all. I don't know what it refers to. To me, the metaverse only expresses 1 bit of information, which is the distinction between new and old; I have always understood the metaverse as "new things." So far, in all instances where the term metaverse is used, if you replace it with "new things," it doesn't affect your understanding. For example, the Dali Metaverse Research Institute is essentially the Dali New Things Research Institute; it seems that anything slightly new can be placed into the metaverse.

Chain Catcher: What do you think causes these vague concepts?

Wang Jianshuo: Every term has a tendency to expand and generalize, and expanding a term actually aligns with economic laws.** When a term becomes larger, it gathers more related people together—investors, startups, customers, etc.—and the market becomes larger.

For example, the metaverse is actually a marketing term coined by Facebook, but many people use market terminology to describe the world. From a company's perspective, Facebook originally wanted to create a VR world but instead claimed to be building the metaverse. While this aligns with Facebook's interests, it does not align with the interests of society as a whole; we are all being led by Facebook.

In December 2021, Facebook officially changed its name to Meta, advancing into the metaverse.

Moreover, in such a new field, people need to find common ground and seek out others who are similar to them, which requires the use of the most efficient means. The most efficient way is to make a mark in terms of clothing, language, etc., so that you don't have to speak or can speak normally; just by looking from a distance or hearing any ordinary sentence, the information is conveyed. This is what is known as jargon. Many jargons today are actually a way to embellish language, which can effectively convey some information and efficiently allow people to recognize peers among the masses.

Chain Catcher: Is this intentionally setting a barrier?

Wang Jianshuo: I don't think this is a barrier. The use of these new terms is just defining whether you are one of the insiders. What is an insider? It means that if you understand their language system, you are one of them. This is a process of competing for a language system, and its most important purpose is to distinguish similar people. This can easily reveal how long someone has been in the circle and assess their status within it.

In the crypto circle, people actually want to raise communication costs rather than lower them; they want to make you not understand rather than understand. This creates a very high entry barrier, which also aligns with the interests of those in the crypto circle. For example, how can I quickly demonstrate that I am more experienced than you? If in a conversation, 8 out of 10 words in a sentence you have never heard before, don't you quickly realize my status?

For the listener, they strive to learn these new terms, and after three months, when they can finally speak like the veterans, they have established their position in the industry. In simple terms, this is language monopoly; it's not about speaking properly. For example, in the crypto circle, "Good Morning" must be said as "GM." Why use an abbreviation?

Chain Catcher: You have questioned various confusing behaviors of DAOs in your writings. Please elaborate on your doubts and confusion regarding DAOs.

Wang Jianshuo: DAOs have a problem of generalization; organizing a dinner or creating a WeChat group is often referred to as forming a DAO. The biggest misconception about DAOs is that they are the next version of companies. This answer is clearly wrong; DAOs should not be the next version of companies but rather the next version of interest groups, or companies are just one of many versions of DAOs.** Functionally, a company could only be a DAO after stripping away 90% of its functions; I have never seen a DAO as successful as a company.

In my view, a company is Hermes, while a DAO is a plastic bag. The development of a company is already very complete; the only issue is that it's too expensive—establishing a company incurs costs like registered capital, employee recruitment, and organizational management. In contrast, DAOs are very cheap and suitable for use by beginner organizations. DAOs, as interest groups, are fine for people to use, but one should not have excessive fantasies about them; these fantasies are worthless. When you see a DAO, you should think of an enhanced version of Reddit, Zhihu, Jike, or Tianya.

The current enthusiasm for DAOs is purely a trend; the vast majority of DAOs are actually meaningless, and there is no need to spend too much energy on them. The DAOs being organized now are essentially interest groups; do we really need so many interest groups? This is a questionable issue.

My ongoing confusion about DAOs is, what exactly is their use? Where is their product-market fit? This is very similar to wikis in 2005; almost everyone was creating wikis, and the impact of wikis was no less than that of DAOs today. However, to this day, almost all wikis globally have died out, leaving only Wikipedia.

Therefore, the current frenzy to create DAOs, which will soon all die out, may be the fate of DAOs. I have no doubt that within the entire DAO space, there may eventually be some useful DAOs, but what use do most DAOs serve?

Chain Catcher: How do you view the phenomenon of bubbles in the crypto market?

Wang Jianshuo: Honestly, I don't understand what a bubble is. I once referred to the entire NFT or Web3 field as a surfing ground, suitable for "professional bubble surfers" to play in; they can make a lot of money from many people, but most people lose money in it.

NFTs and blockchain don't seem to be bubbles; they are inherently like this. You can't say that if you gamble in a casino and lose money, it means the bubble has burst; the setup mechanism is designed for some to win and others to lose, which is not a bubble. Calling the current bear market a bubble may overlook its essence. Its essence is merely that some professionals are legally transferring the wealth of non-professionals into their hands.

Chain Catcher: Is this considered harvesting leeks?

Wang Jianshuo: This is not called harvesting leeks. If we say harvesting leeks, it seems that the sickle used for harvesting is malicious, the sickle is bad, and the leeks are innocent. In fact, it is quite the opposite; capable sickles earn professional money, while speculators without judgment lose money, making it hard to say who occupies the moral high ground.

I don't like the term "leeks," as if leeks bear no responsibility. The truth is, your judgment has gone wrong; if you don't even know how to control risk, just claiming to be a leek is like pretending to be completely innocent, which is incorrect.

Chain Catcher: Regarding NFTs, beyond their investment attributes, many people also value their enhancement of personal image. Is this valuable?

Wang Jianshuo: There is some value in this. Why is it about images? Because the time each person's avatar is seen by others has already surpassed the time a watch on their wrist is seen. If given the chance, you might prefer to buy a monkey to put on your avatar rather than a Rolex to wear on your wrist.

However, for most NFTs, including monkeys, I have always believed that their gambling attributes outweigh their value attributes. NFTs are actually a very legitimate casino; casinos also have value, and most people spend money to buy fun; NFTs sometimes provide such value. But everyone should be very clear that what you are buying is happiness, not profit; making money is another matter altogether.

Chain Catcher: How did you discover problems in the crypto industry? How do you learn new knowledge about the crypto industry?

Wang Jianshuo: My viewpoints do not come from people in the Web2 or Web3 fields. Many old internet people actually know nothing about Web3. Most people in Web3 are also very talkative, but you will find that the content everyone talks about is the same, with almost no variation because their information is highly homogeneous.

I actually don't have more sources of information, nor have I read much; I just rely on basic logic and facts to discover some logical problems within. So now I have become a professional contrarian; I simply calm down and study whether everyone's views are accurate.

The method I use is similar to that of Randall Munroe, the author of "Things Explainer," using the 1000 simplest words to explain the most complex things, without allowing the use of complex big words or new terms. When you hear any word, try to rewrite it using the 1000 simplest words; when you write it the second time, the true situation will surface. This is a natural tool that forces you to find the essence of new things. I highly recommend this method, as it can help you clarify many issues across various fields.

For example, after understanding Web3 in my own way, I found that Web3 is actually a global table, not the next generation of the internet; the term Web3 should be replaced with Table. What intrigues me is why so many smart people have not truly taken the time to think about this issue.

I have also read many articles in the crypto field, and honestly, I find them hard to understand, feeling impressed but confused. From my personal perspective, I can only say that my knowledge is shallow; however, from the perspective of the entire industry, if others cannot understand, it should be the author's problem, not the reader's. The most basic way to test whether someone understands a concept is whether they can continuously break it down.

Chain Catcher: More and more newcomers are starting to enter the crypto industry to learn. What problems should they pay attention to avoid?

Wang Jianshuo: This wave of blockchain, especially the state of all entrants, is very similar to those who entered the internet in 1995, especially those who entered the Web2.0 boom in 2005: they are all very young, full of various imaginations about the future, and even a bit like moths to a flame.

Now many people have formed many DAOs, initiated many blockchain projects, and talked a lot. You will find that they are very enthusiastic, but honestly, will it definitely work? Not necessarily. However, everyone feels that as long as they are happy, that's enough; this is a unique privilege of youth—just being happy. It's like many young people getting into music or parties, not for any particular reason, just for the excitement.

In the various technological waves I have experienced, I have seen very similar things: young people play the role of the main force in exploring new things. Previously, I was among the youngest group, but now I am slightly older, yet I see the same group of people. Technology is similar; the confusion that arises at the birth of each new technology is quite alike. History keeps repeating itself, coming back again and again.

As for advice, I do not intend to be anyone's mentor, nor do I believe I have the ability to give others advice. Because I believe that the learning ability and methods of young people should far exceed mine.

But the problem is that many people in the crypto industry are not learning blockchain technology itself; instead, they are learning how people in a community speak, often mentioning consensus and decentralization, but no one knows what these terms really mean—neither the speakers nor the listeners. Everyone thinks it's cool to speak this new language, believing they understand, deceiving everyone.

Learning a language is not difficult, but truly learning something is very hard. Many people, when learning something new, think they have learned it just by knowing the name, but the difference is vast, almost like heaven and earth. Often, they are merely learning a new set of jargon rather than truly understanding the thing itself. The biggest risk resulting from this is that these newcomers end up speaking in a way that is just as obscure and convoluted as those veterans, having abandoned their ability to speak plainly. They think they have learned a lot, but in reality, their minds are empty, just like when they first entered the circle three years ago.

Chain Catcher: As an internet native, how do you position yourself in the Web3 field? What is your mindset while researching blockchain?

Wang Jianshuo: Until now, I definitely consider myself a novice, but I do not hide the fact that I am a novice. What might be different about me is that I have standards for whether I understand something; if I cannot clearly describe it in my own very simple words, I will admit that I do not understand it. When faced with discussions about blockchain content, I can easily and honestly say, "I don't understand this question; I don't know what you are talking about."

In fact, I am a bit like a researcher or learner, finding this matter interesting and wanting to figure out what it is about, without any particularly strong pressure to do something. My mindset is relatively calm, stemming from my understanding that blockchain is an inevitable wave that is coming; the wave is actually slow, slower than we imagine.

I now just hope to clarify existing things using simple words; I don't have any foresight. Because foresight is about predicting what the future will look like, and there can be many guesses, but who can confidently say they know the future? Those who are so confident about knowing the future often end up losing terribly.

Many young people have many beautiful fantasies because this is their first experience. While I am researching and thinking, I will also appropriately pour a bit of cold water on them, reminding them that this may not happen exactly as they imagine, but even if it doesn't happen that way, it's OK. Go ahead, walk boldly. However, I cannot pour cold water to the extent that it discourages them from doing anything; that wouldn't be reasonable. Who are you to say you are right? It's just that from a probabilistic perspective, in such an early stage, most things actually do not work. Once you understand this, you can approach things more calmly and not be so anxious.

Chain Catcher: How do you view the current development stage of the blockchain industry?

Wang Jianshuo: If we look at it from the perspective of internet experience, I would compare the current development stage of blockchain to the internet in 1993. Because the internet did not have a browser until 1994, and before that, almost all internet applications did not survive. Looking back at early protocols like FTP and Finger… countless protocols existed, but only the HTTP protocol was valuable; most other protocols have died out. Can you imagine an internet without a browser?

Blockchain is now like the internet before the browser appeared in 1993; the main track has not yet emerged, and it may take many years to cross into 1994. The various applications that are now springing up like mushrooms are due to their high diversity, and you will find that 99% of them should die out; most projects have no future. The lack of future is not due to the projects themselves but is determined by the historical stage of blockchain development we are in.

This is not to pour cold water; just like the internet before 1993, although products and technologies did not survive, all the people remained. All the people are still those entrepreneurs; even if one project fails, there are still other entrepreneurial opportunities.

Chain Catcher: How long will the development cycle of blockchain take? Will it be faster than the internet?

Wang Jianshuo: Based on the development experience of the internet, the entire technological revolution of the internet has basically come to an end, spanning about 25 to 30 years, and in China, it has spanned about 20 years.

The development of blockchain may be faster than the internet, but not by much. Do you know why the internet took 20 years? It just happens to span one to two generations. A new thing sometimes has nothing to do with technology; it relies on people aging and new people growing up to repeat the process. This is a law of human social development; it's not purely a matter of technological history; it just takes that much time.

Chain Catcher: After researching Web3, do you think it will impact the current internet? Do you have any entrepreneurial or investment ideas?

Wang Jianshuo: There is no impact; they are two different worlds. Web3 is superimposed on the current internet; it will not replace the current internet, and even in the short term, it will not affect the current internet. The two worlds operate independently, like parallel worlds, and will not temporarily intersect.

I have been looking for opportunities, but so far, I have not clearly thought about what I want to do, and I currently have no investment ideas. What I understand is definitely not enough. Many people rush to invest or enter the market, but frankly, they are just the ones giving money to others in the casino, thinking they are investing. While I do not believe I have the ability or willingness to legally put others' money into my own wallet, at least I have the self-awareness not to let my money be legally placed into someone else's wallet due to my arrogance.

Chain Catcher: What are the common misconceptions among entrepreneurs in the Web3 field, and what suggestions do you have?

Wang Jianshuo: Many people believe that Web3 will replace the internet and are preparing to redo all current internet applications with Web3, which is incorrect.** If they are homogeneous things, they need to be redone with each new version. For example, in the internet's evolution from PC to mobile, many things are worth redoing.

If you could travel back in time to the early days of internet development, don't be so eager to start a business because most of the issues that needed to be solved at that time were naturally resolved by 2005. Before that, no matter how hard you try, you won't be able to solve them. In fact, each wave brings new opportunities, so there's no need to rush. For something very speculative, it may be fleeting, but for a large technological wave like blockchain, finding the right time to enter is more important than being the first to enter. In hindsight, many things are just right at the right time; you may not know it at the time, but you will know later.

Chain Catcher: What should be the focus in the Web3 field right now?

Wang Jianshuo: The biggest problem now is that people still do not know what blockchain can do. We are very certain about the possibilities it offers technically, but there are still no answers regarding what it can specifically do.

The only thing that should be done now is to serve Web3 practitioners well; do not consider any non-Web3 practitioners as customers. This is my basic judgment; although I am not very confident, I vaguely feel that this is correct. Because if we cannot serve Web3 practitioners well now, how can we serve more people in the future?

You see, the current Mirror platform, although it is a writing platform, most of the articles on it are about blockchain, and there are hardly any users writing novels there. This is very normal because in a new field, only these people care about things in this field.

Chain Catcher: Recently, you also attended the Wamao Summer event in Dali and expressed your regrets and expectations for Dalifornia in your writings. How do you evaluate the significance and impact of this event?

Wang Jianshuo: This is a very interesting community, and I am very happy to gather and chat with everyone. From the knowledge domain, my gains are relatively limited because all the relatively serious sharing did not happen later; everyone was more focused on socializing, which is, of course, very important.

This event is quite special; it is the first large-scale conference of Web3 held in China. There may have been others before, but it is rare to see so many idealists. It can be said that, from a human perspective, the participants in this conference will establish their positions in the Chinese Web3 industry for the next decade.

The Wamao Summer event is particularly reminiscent of the China Blogger Conference I organized with friends in 2005. The impact of this event on the community of Web3 practitioners in China is profound; note that I am not saying it will have a significant impact on Web3 products, technologies, etc.

In Dali, many people compared Dali to California. Dali shares many similarities with the San Francisco Bay Area in California. In terms of natural environment, from temperature and rainfall to geographical location, they are very similar; the terrain is almost identical. Culturally, California is stronger, with the hippie culture of the 1970s and the gold rush, which later gave rise to high-tech companies and Silicon Valley. Dali is currently ahead of the Bay Area; some artists, lifestyle enthusiasts, and digital nomads have flocked to Dali and settled down.

In my view, the most valuable aspect of Dali is not the local community but this group of capable, innovative new immigrants who are full of ideas; this group is the greatest treasure for any country or city. Dali currently has a temporary leading advantage, with a friendly atmosphere permeating the community.

However, I believe that Dali has only a very small chance of becoming the next San Francisco or Seattle; even if it does, it will take at least one or two hundred years of development. I also do not believe Dali will become a technology center because a prerequisite for a technology center is to have a world-class university, and Dali is unlikely to develop in that direction.

In the current stage or in the next 20 years, Dali is most similar to Aspen in Colorado, USA; it is a gathering center, not an economic or cultural center, allowing people to come here for ideological exchanges and various activities, which is achievable.

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