Dialogue with Manta Founder: Why Are We Leaving Polkadot and OP Stack?

Interviewer: Victor, Founder of Manta

Interviewer: Grapefruit, ChainCatcher

In less than four months, Manta successfully completed two major migrations. First, it transitioned from Polkadot to Ethereum Layer 2, and its Layer 2 network is about to migrate from OP Stack to Polygon CDK.

Manta was originally built as a ZK Layer 1 privacy network based on the Polkadot Substrate framework and participated in the Polkadot parachain slot auction in 2021. In July of this year, Manta announced that it would develop its own EVM Layer 2, Manta Pacific, based on OP Stack, and rename its Layer 1 network Manta to Manta Atlantic. At that time, the Manta ecosystem will consist of the ZK Layer 1 network Manta Atlantic and the Layer 2 network Manta Pacific.

Within a week of publicly announcing the Layer 2 plan, Manta Network developer p0x labs announced a $25 million financing round at a $500 million valuation, led by Polychain Capital and Qiming Venture Partners.

In September, Manta Pacific launched its mainnet. In October, Manta officially announced that the Layer 2 network Manta Pacific would migrate from OP Stack to the zkEVM architecture of Polygon CDK.

According to DefiLlama data, as of December 4, the on-chain TVL of the Layer 2 network Manta Pacific is $26 million, ranking in the top ten among all Rollup scaling solutions. According to browser data, the number of transactions on the mainnet has reached 2.7 million, with a daily transaction volume of 215,000 on November 26 alone, and the number of wallet addresses exceeding 280,000, with data showing a consistent upward trend.

Additionally, the ecological development of the Layer 2 network Manta Pacific is thriving, with over 150 ecological partners and on-chain applications covering DeFi, zk technology games, social products, etc. The ecological Odyssey incentive event MantaFest has already entered its second round.

From Polkadot to Ethereum Layer 2, and then from OP Stack to Polygon CDK, each migration decision for Manta presents a new challenge. However, from the operational results, each migration has brought new opportunities and growth potential.

Although Manta originated from the Polkadot ecosystem, it did not stagnate with the development of the Polkadot ecosystem but actively explored new possibilities, ultimately emerging from the Polkadot ecosystem and establishing its own independent ecosystem.

Recently, ChainCatcher invited Manta founder Victor to discuss "the reasons behind Manta's transition from the Polkadot parachain ecosystem to Ethereum Layer 2, and then from OP Stack to Polygon CDK, as well as its ecological development."

Leaving Polkadot for Ethereum

1. ChainCatcher: What prompted you to enter the Web3 space? Do you think your previous personal or work experiences have helped you in your Web3 endeavors? What are your main responsibilities at Manta now?

Manta Founder Victor: I got into cryptocurrency around 2017. Before that, I worked in Israel, which was my first job after graduating from university and a unique experience. I was involved in investments and encountered many new technologies, and it was during that time that I learned about blockchain technology and participated in some cryptocurrency-related investments. In the previous cycle, I also worked on a cryptocurrency fund.

In 2018, I chose to continue my studies at Harvard Kennedy School, focusing on economics and public management, and took some courses at MIT, including "Blockchain and Money" taught by Gary Gensler, who is now the chairman of the SEC. I met Manta's co-founder Kenny Li in that class, where he was a teaching assistant for the MIT blockchain course. There were some research topics related to ZK in that class, and we also participated in a government project in collaboration with the Central Bank of Singapore, which was about an interbank CBDC payment system. I remember writing an article on ZK KYC, exploring how to use zero-knowledge proof technology for KYC in banking systems, which is still published on MIT's website, with Gary Gensler as the supervising professor. We chose to focus on ZK-related applications based on that article.

Manta initially focused on privacy in its early stages in 2020 and developed on-chain privacy payment products like Manta Pay. Now, Manta has become a general privacy layer for ZK applications, also known as the ZK Application layer.

From my personal background, I studied in the UK, worked in Israel, and then returned to the US to continue my studies and work, which has kept me in a global state. The crypto industry allows me to maintain that lifestyle, making both work and life more international. This is also what Manta has been doing—not limiting itself to a specific region and targeting international markets, allowing ZK and blockchain technology to be truly adopted. My personal growth background allows me to blend both Eastern and Western cultures, having grown up in China and received education both domestically and abroad, which makes me more open, focused, and hardworking in my work.

Now, the Manta team has expanded significantly, and I am mainly responsible for product engineering architecture, ecosystem development, as well as business development, ecosystem growth, and team building.

2. ChainCatcher: Manta was originally built as a Layer 1 privacy network based on the Polkadot Substrate framework and participated in the Polkadot parachain slot auction in 2021. However, in July of this year, Manta announced that it would develop its own EVM Layer 2. What considerations led to this decision? Why create your own Layer 2?

Manta Founder Victor: This actually indicates that Manta has taken a very different path. In fact, when Manta started in 2020, very few people believed that a ZK privacy network was a project worth focusing on, but we have consistently pursued applications in this area.

After we built the entire ZK architecture on Polkadot, we found that the architecture was not user-friendly, especially in terms of cross-chain interaction with Ethereum. Additionally, the overall development and growth of the Polkadot ecosystem stagnated in 2022, causing many products developed on Manta to go unnoticed or unused.

After Manta developed the EVM chain this year, we found that the growth rate of on-chain applications and users was accelerating, and the collaboration opportunities within the ecosystem were increasing, revealing greater development potential for the ZK application layer. This is why Manta is currently focusing on optimizing Layer 2.

Moreover, Manta participated in the Polkadot slot auction but did not completely abandon its products on Polkadot; instead, it retained the original Polkadot parachain network for continued operation while adding a Layer 2 layer. From a personal perspective, this move also represents Manta's team adding a new product roadmap after fulfilling previous commitments, which is not only an explanation to the community but will also provide more growth space.

3. ChainCatcher: Many users interpret Manta's move to "leave the Polkadot ecosystem" as a form of "active self-rescue." What are your thoughts on this perspective?

Manta Founder Victor: I don't deny that it's a form of self-rescue. From a personal perspective, first, in the early stages of development, Manta needed to build both ZK-related facilities and the underlying infrastructure for Polkadot. Once everything was built, Polkadot had no users left.

This is actually a matter of project values. If the Polkadot team had placed great importance on on-chain behavior and infrastructure building, we would have continued to stay, but currently, they do not seem to prioritize on-chain behavior and instead focus on PR. This is inconsistent with Manta's values, as we place great importance on on-chain data and real user numbers.

As of now, there isn't even a mature cross-chain bridge from the Polkadot native chain to EVM. Moreover, Polkadot has not even improved the user experience of wallets, and there isn't a single user-friendly native wallet within the ecosystem. We spent four months creating a wallet ourselves, which has over 300,000 downloads, while many native Polkadot wallets claim to support all chains but have only around 60,000 users after two years. This clearly differs from our values.

However, when collaborating with Celestia and Polygon, our values align very well, particularly regarding ecosystem strategies and standards for providing infrastructure. There are no issues during the collaboration process, which reflects some of the experiences and lessons we've learned in our own development. But I don't believe that "Manta has left Polkadot." We will continue to deliver products on Polkadot, but that doesn't mean I support every action taken by its officials.

Currently, Manta is the first EVM Layer 2 on Celestia and the largest ecological network on Celestia's infrastructure. At the same time, Manta is also the first project to choose to migrate from OP Stack to Polygon CDK, with many innovative modular behaviors at the underlying level.

4. ChainCatcher: What is Manta's current positioning? What roles do the parachain Manta Atlantic and the Layer 2 network Manta Pacific play? What is the relationship between the two, and what are the future development directions?

Manta Founder Victor: The future will be a migration process. If Polkadot continues to develop as it is now, we will gradually migrate and focus on Layer 2, but Layer 1 is still operating normally. Its main directions include ensuring safe staking, providing basic liquidity for DeFi, and developing some identity and ecosystem-related products.

In April of this year, Manta launched the ZK-based NFT/SBT LaunchPad issuance platform NPO, which has minted over 600,000 ZKSBTs in four months and has partnerships with over 20 projects. All this data comes from on-chain, is publicly transparent, and can be viewed by anyone. However, this has not brought effective exposure, mainly because Polkadot does not prioritize on-chain data.

However, Layer 2 showcases our advantages, strong operational capabilities, and aggressive ecosystem strategies, achieving good results in Layer 2 development. Manta started Layer 2 in July, launched the mainnet in September, and announced the migration from OP Stack to Polygon in October, making significant progress and breakthroughs each month, with a current on-chain TVL of $28 million since going live in September.

From a personal perspective, this growth rate is just the beginning, and there will be many more actions in the future. In terms of operational methods, Manta and Polygon are similar in that they focus on ecosystem recognition. Although the entire backing is from Asian project teams, they target the global market and attract builders from around the world. This is also Manta's core value, providing a fair stage for any builder worldwide, without favoring certain assets or ethnic groups, which is unique and powerful about Manta.

5. ChainCatcher: As a native project that started in Polkadot, how do you view the current development status of Polkadot? Recently, there have been increasing negative issues such as layoffs, slow ecosystem development, and stagnation. As a project once seen as the future of cross-chain, what do you think has led to Polkadot's current development difficulties? If you were an ecological project party, what suggestions or messages would you have for the Polkadot officials?

Manta Founder Victor: From my personal perspective, I do not agree with Polkadot's current development approach and values, but I still contribute and fulfill what I need to do; Manta has not been unfaithful.

There must be reasons for Polkadot's development to reach this point, primarily due to the lack of emphasis on on-chain behavior and an overemphasis on PR.

For example, there was a recent overemphasis on the partnership with Deloitte, but this collaboration does not lead to direct on-chain behavior, while developers who create direct on-chain behavior do not receive sufficient incentives, which leads to real builders being unwilling to continue building on Polkadot. This is the problem. In contrast, the Solana network also engages in PR and even launched a phone, but its developers receive sufficient incentives for any on-chain work they do, leading to healthy development. The KILT protocol, which is currently supported by Polkadot officials, is also a project in collaboration with Deloitte, but it has only about 10,000 total addresses, with only around 200 active addresses per day.

From a personal perspective, Polkadot officials' strong support for such projects is a disregard for builders, focusing on external false prosperity rather than real application scenarios, which is unsustainable. In fact, Arbitrum has created a good example by paying close attention to on-chain behavior and providing sufficient incentives for projects that grow on-chain, leading to positive growth, which is the value brought by a free market.

6. ChainCatcher: Have you communicated with the Polkadot officials about the current issues? What is their attitude towards developers?

Manta Founder Victor: We have communicated a few times, and they do not care, especially about Asian developers. This is why Manta aims to create a fair environment for all developers, regardless of whether they are Indian, Chinese, or from any European or American country. But Polkadot does not operate this way; I personally do not feel that Polkadot officials treat projects from Chinese and white developers equally. There may have been many Chinese and Asian projects that have rug-pulled, but that does not mean all Chinese projects should be treated with a different attitude; that is unfair to developers.

Abandoning OP Stack for Polygon CDK

7. ChainCatcher: After launching the Manta Pacific testnet based on OP Stack, Manta announced in October that it would migrate from OP Stack to the zkEVM architecture of Polygon CDK. Why did you decide to migrate to Polygon CDK after confirming the OP Stack plan? What prompted this change?

Manta Founder Victor: Actually, users in the Chinese community refer to Manta as "the three-surname family of the crypto circle," moving from Polkadot to OP and then to Polygon. In fact, there are four surnames, including Celestia.

First, we aim for the migration to be seamless for users, which is our commitment to providing the best user experience. For users, the migration process of Manta is seamless; the Layer 2 architecture of Manta Pacific is essentially adding a Prover on top of OP Stack, which is Polygon CDK. The good part is that users can perceive a reduction in withdrawal times; currently, it takes three days for approval, but later withdrawals will be credited immediately, which is also an advantage of ZK, and this is why we chose to migrate.

Secondly, the user experience will be better, and costs will be lower. First, at the Prover level, both Manta and Polygon use ZK Prover architecture, which reduces the cost of generating proofs, benefiting both Polygon and Manta. Additionally, there is no waiting period for users when withdrawing funds.

Block times will be shorter, and costs will be lower. Previously, every transaction needed to be retained regardless of whether a real transaction occurred, leading to relatively higher costs. Afterward, only real transactions will be recorded on-chain, significantly lowering costs. This also makes it more user-friendly for game deployments, which are all technically and experientially more valuable for users and developers.

From a personal perspective, I do not care whether it belongs to Ethereum or OP. In the OP Stack ecosystem, Manta is the third-largest TVL project after Base. After migrating to Polygon, Manta is the only project in the Polygon ecosystem that has not issued a token, so regardless of which ecosystem, we will receive resource support. However, Polygon is better in that it provides more business development support, which will accelerate the current development of the Manta ecosystem, which is exactly what we need.

Therefore, for the prosperity of the entire ecosystem and a better user experience, what Manta is doing coincides with the ZK narrative. It is not that we are doing ZK just because it is popular; Manta has been working on ZK-related content for over three years and does not care about doing a little more or a little less. We just hope to make infrastructure choices based on better user experiences. Additionally, the cost of choices set in a modular world is very low.

8. ChainCatcher: As the first project to switch from OP Stack to Polygon CDK midway, having deeply experienced both development stacks, what do you think is the biggest difference between OP Stack and Polygon CDK? Do you have any experiences to share with developers or users interested in these two stacks?

Manta Founder Victor: First of all, both stack solutions are very usable. Whether for building a chain, OP Stack or Polygon CDK are the best choices, with low costs and easy scalability, and robust tool support.

Additionally, the OP Stack solution is more mature with fewer barriers, while ZK costs a bit more due to the added Prover costs. Moreover, Polygon CDK has not been online for long, so it still needs more time for evaluation. Overall, both solutions have their advantages, and the advantages are already apparent.

9. ChainCatcher: Nowadays, the L2 Stacks track has successively launched multiple developer stack solutions, including OP Stack, Arbitrum Orbit, zkSync's ZK Stack, Polygon CDK, and StarkNet Stacks. For developers looking to build their own Layer 2, what advice do you have for choosing which L2 Stacks solution to adopt?

Manta Founder Victor: Scale effects are very important. For example, OP Stack has Base and opBNB, which generate significant scale effects, while Polygon has larger projects like Manta, Immutable, Canto, and Astar. In contrast, some new stack solutions are still in their early stages, with smaller tracks and ecosystems that need time to develop, which is a distinguishing factor.

Moreover, developers choose these large projects for a reason, primarily based on the technical completeness. Both OP Stack and Polygon CDK are very mature and have not encountered issues during use. Of course, our technical team has also spent a lot of time, including our collaborations with Caldera, OP, and Polygon's ZK technology teams, who have all presented themselves very professionally during discussions.

10. ChainCatcher: It has been three months since Manta announced the launch of the Ethereum Layer 2 network. What changes or narrative trends has this transition brought to the Manta network?

Manta Founder Victor: First is modularity; the launch of Celestia marks the beginning of the modular era. Manta Pacific is currently the largest execution layer in this modular landscape, which is the first trend. The second is zkEVM; Manta is the first network to migrate from OP to zkEVM, which will also be a future trend, as OP officials are also working on related content to introduce ZK proofs into zkEVM.

Additionally, Manta aims to become the ZK Application layer, allowing Solidity developers to enable ZK functionality in existing applications with just a few lines of code without needing to learn a new language (like Cairo for Starknet). Specifically, Manta Pacific provides a ZK code library called Universal Circuits and encapsulates ZK circuits into contracts (zkContracts), allowing Solidity smart contract and dApp developers to simply call this contract to write new content. This effectively unlocks new functionalities for Ethereum, while developers do not need to learn ZK cryptography or new programming languages.

Therefore, Manta is not trying to create a faster or cheaper Ethereum but hopes to unlock new functionalities for Ethereum, providing users with new experiences in a better environment. As mentioned earlier, Manta's goal is to better attract more users and improve infrastructure based on user needs, while also gaining more users as the infrastructure is well developed. This is the core of Manta's pursuit of infrastructure migration and ecosystem development.

Advantages of Layer 2 Network Manta Pacific and Ecological Development

11. ChainCatcher: According to L2BEAT, there are over 30 Layer 2 networks listed. Currently, Manta Pacific's TVL is $27 million, ranking 20th in the Layer 2 track, and many applications are also establishing their own Layer 2. Compared to other Layer 2 networks, what advantages do you think the Layer 2 network Manta Pacific has?

Manta Founder Victor: As mentioned above, Manta is focused on the ZK Application layer, aiming to unlock new functionalities for Ethereum and make it easier for Solidity developers to access these new features. By using ZK technology, the underlying costs will be lower, the process faster, and more scalable. Other Layer 2 networks have expanded Ethereum but have not unlocked new functionalities for Ethereum, or, like Starkware, while they have new features, developers need to learn new programming languages, which increases costs.

12. ChainCatcher: As an independent network, the prosperity of the ecosystem often becomes an important indicator of a chain's success. What strategies has Manta Pacific adopted in ecological development? How does it secure a place among numerous Layer 2s?

Manta Founder Victor: Manta officially provides significant support for ecosystem development, treating all projects equally. As long as a project benefits Manta's development, it will receive strong and comprehensive support, from early-stage assistance and financing to later help in acquiring more users and greater growth, generating better on-chain data together.

Regarding ecological development strategies, each project has its own characteristics. From my perspective, the first is to support more native projects; we actively promote some ZK projects almost every week, such as the all-chain game Gabby World and zkHoldem, which are native projects on Manta and have performed very well on-chain. These are the types of native projects we strongly support and grow alongside. The second is that ecosystems collaborate with each other; for instance, with the Celestia TIA token, Manta's DeFi products like Aperture, PacificSwap, LayerBank, and KiloEx will provide more application scenarios for Celestia Token. This is actually a collaborative interaction within the entire ecosystem, which is something other chains do not have.

13. ChainCatcher: Currently, a large number of applications and Layer 1s are announcing their move to the Layer 2 market. How do you view this phenomenon? What kind of landscape do you think the Layer 2 market will present in the future?

Manta Founder Victor: Personally, I think everyone will have their own characteristics, and in the end, there may not be more Layer 2s. However, those with their own characteristics will have more advantages. For Manta, we will continue to focus on ZK Applications, allowing ZK to have more application scenarios and maximizing this characteristic.

14. ChainCatcher: What is the progress of the Manta token MANTA? What role will the MANTA token play in the Manta ecosystem in the future? There are community discussions about updating the MANTA token economic model.

Manta Founder Victor: Yes, the economic model will undergo some updates, but the overall issuance of the token will become clearer as the ecosystem develops. There are some plans, but more will depend on the ecosystem's growth to support a better economic model. However, our current focus and center remain on ecosystem building.

About the Development and Application of ZK

15. ChainCatcher: The concept of ZK was mentioned multiple times at the Denver conference this year, but from the current development perspective, the ZK track's products are still mainly ZK EVM-type network infrastructures, with fewer application products. How do you view the current state of ZK development? What are the challenges to the widespread adoption of ZK applications?

Manta Founder Victor: I think people still have too few productization ideas; this is one of my thoughts. We are still very concerned about ZK use cases. From another perspective, the DAU (daily active users) of ZK applications could reach at least 60 to 70 million. Many ZK research and ZK projects do not care about this, but from Manta's perspective, we hope to make ZK useful, which is a value proposition that differs significantly from most projects. As for how to make it useful and how effective it can be, it requires time to promote. Personally, I believe that the areas where ZK can be used are currently very limited, but there are breakthroughs in credentialing and fully on-chain games.

16. ChainCatcher: Which ZK tracks and application products do you find most promising?

Manta Founder Victor: In the long term, there will certainly be more than just scaling; there are many more things to be done. From the user perspective, credentialing and gaming are two areas that can easily break out. We hope that many ZK applications will utilize ZK technology but do not need to convey to users that it is a ZK application to create value. In other words, people should use the application because it is genuinely useful, not just because it is a ZK application.

17. ChainCatcher: In mid-January, the Devconnect conference will be held in Istanbul, Turkey. As the initiator of the ZKDay event, how do you think the ZK-related topics at this conference will differ or improve compared to the Denver conference in March this year?

Manta Founder Victor: The biggest difference between these two events is that research engineering projects have gradually become real projects that users can perceive. Simply put, previous ZK discussions were mostly at the research stage, but now there are applications available for users. Previously, it was "Builder for Technology," but now it is "Builder for User." Additionally, from a research perspective, there is no new content, but from an implementation perspective, some projects have produced user-based products. Furthermore, concepts like Multi-Prover and proof markets are good directions, but whether they can be truly useful and adopted by users will still require a lot of time.

18. ChainCatcher: As a student of Professor Gary Gensler, how do you view his strict regulatory policies in the crypto space?

Manta Founder Victor: He has his own ideas and purposes for doing this, hoping to protect investors. The issues with FTX indicate that there are problems, and regulation still has a long way to go. Someone has to do this, and I am glad that someone who understands cryptocurrency is doing it. Unfortunately, while he understands the crypto industry, the execution methods have not had a very positive impact on the industry.

Summary of 2023 and Future Predictions

20. ChainCatcher: What industry issues is the team currently most focused on?

Manta Founder Victor: From a personal perspective, the first is the development of Ethereum and new use cases on-chain; the second is the progress of ZK technology and how to achieve more breakthroughs; and the third is hoping that things can progress smoothly according to the planned expectations, allowing me to keep up with more developments.

21. ChainCatcher: What predictions do you have for the upcoming crypto market?

Manta Founder Victor: First, I believe that the value of Ethereum may surpass that of Bitcoin in the future; second, the activity and prosperity of Layer 2 may exceed that of Ethereum or surpass all Layer 1s in the next cycle; finally, the narratives driven by the industry will certainly be more decentralized than in the previous cycle, and the things that can generate value this time will also be more decentralized.

22. ChainCatcher: Where do you think the breakthrough for large-scale Web3 applications lies? Which tracks currently have this potential? Which three tracks do you find most promising for 2024?

Manta Founder Victor: First, I am very optimistic about fully on-chain games for real growth; second, things that are truly related to life; and third, easy-to-use use cases. Specifically, I am most optimistic about Layer 2, ZK Applications, and fully on-chain games.