Dialogue Sign Co-founder Xin Yan: SIGN does not want to become the next VC coin

Guest: Xin Yan, Co-founder and CEO of Sign

Interview: Nianqing, ChainCatcher

On April 1st, April Fool's Day, Sign and the community played a joke with a "Sign TGE info link." But it wasn't entirely a joke, as "Dai Lai" is real, and Sign's token SIGN is about to launch.

Sign co-founder Xin Yan later stated that for Sign, TGE is just the beginning, and the community doesn't need to overhype TGE. The main event to look forward to is the launch of the Sign App, which will become the primary portal for users to earn rewards through contributions.

Last year, the on-chain protocol signing platform EthSign underwent a complete rebranding to Sign, reorganizing its product logic and unifying products like EthSign, TokenTable, and SignPass under the Sign protocol. Meanwhile, Sign began building its own community, "Orange Dynasty," encouraging people to contribute to the Sign community in ways they excel at. Xin Yan has also become more active on social media, seemingly finding his role in the community—Chief reply guy @Sign.

Clearly, SIGN does not want to become the next VC coin.

Three years ago, EthSign gained prominence due to the participation of many well-known VCs and became the first and only project in which all three departments of Sequoia participated in the same round of financing. However, the VC version of the story is gradually losing its effectiveness, and a "renaissance" driven by the crypto community is emerging.

At some moment in 2023, Xin Yan suddenly realized that VC coins actually lack a real community. In a recent interview with ChainCatcher, he mentioned that to establish a solid foundation, one must break free from the path dependence of relying on others. Based on this idea, the team decided to drop the "Eth" from EthSign and start doing their own thing. The products of Sign have also gained greater imagination in this process—providing verification services for more countries and aiming to become the infrastructure for super-sovereign nations.

At the same time, to build a long-term community, Sign plans to implement a more sustainable token economic model that allows users to continuously contribute to the network and receive incentives. The TGE will be completed before the launch of the Sign App, with 40% of the SIGN tokens allocated to contributors before the TGE, including the team, community, and investors. Half of the remaining 60% (i.e., 30% of the total supply) will continuously provide mining incentives for the Sign App. Currently, the Sign SBT and NFT series, which are distributed as community incentives, will continue to exist in the Sign App and be linked to future contribution reward earnings.

What exactly will the Sign App do? What are the future plans? How can ordinary users participate in building the Sign community? Here is the full dialogue:

Sign App: Infrastructure for Super-Sovereign Nations

ChainCatcher: Sign has now launched several products, with the core three being the on-chain contract Sign protocol, on-chain identity verification and visa system SignPass, and token fund flow management tool TokenTable. Could you briefly introduce the current development status of these products and the development plans for this year?

Xin Yan: Over the past four years, Sign's product line has mainly been divided into two parts: one is TokenTable, aiming to become a broker in the crypto space, focusing on token distribution management; the other is Sign-related businesses, focusing on on-chain contract signing and identity verification, dedicated to making information verifiable globally.

First, let's talk about TokenTable. TokenTable focuses on token distribution, unlocking, and airdrop management, implementing the distribution process from project parties to investors and users through smart contracts. Additionally, based on unlocking smart contracts, we also offer OTC trading services. The TokenTable model has been basically validated, and it will continue to develop steadily this year. Recently, we served two major clients: one is Kaito, which is our pioneering case of airdropping based on the X platform, and the other is the AI Agent Launchpad platform Virtuals. Other projects on these two platforms will also use TokenTable. Furthermore, TokenTable will also conduct airdrops for some countries, specifically UBI-related distributions through token distribution to provide basic income.

Next is the Sign-related business. Sign started with EthSign to do on-chain signing and verification protocols. Making any information verifiable globally is our most important feature. In the real world, digital information like IDs, diplomas, and tax certificates is difficult to verify and can easily be forged. However, our technology can make verification as provable as blockchain transactions. Based on this, we launched Sign Protocol, around which we have multiple applications, such as EthSign and SignPass, allowing sovereign IDs to be issued and verified on the blockchain. Last year, we collaborated with two sovereign nations, Sierra Leone and the UAE.

This year, we will focus on advancing Sign, especially in the public service sector. We plan to launch a complete set of blockchain public service solutions to collaborate with governments. Specifically, we will develop a sovereign blockchain for governments through Raas (Rollup-as-a-Service) to solve gas fee issues, making it easier for ordinary users to use. The Sign protocol will run on this chain, providing KYC identity verification and stablecoin payment services. Currently, our main partners include Thailand and surrounding countries in Asia, the UAE in the Middle East, and Barbados in the Americas. This year, we plan to cover 20 countries through this approach.

Additionally, on the user side, we are developing a super app similar to Worldcoin called Sign App. This app is also very much like Alipay, as it can verify identities, conduct blockchain transactions, and has social attributes. We will integrate all current products into the Sign App, making it a distribution channel for information and various services. Moving forward, promoting user downloads of the app will become our most important metric.

ChainCatcher: What is the development progress of the app, and when is it expected to launch?

Xin Yan: We plan to launch it in mid-May. We will first conduct the TGE to reward the community that has been helping us for the past four years. After the TGE, we will launch the Sign App, allocating 30% of the token share for Sign App mining, allowing users to earn SIGN tokens by contributing within the app. This is a key point driving the Sign App.

ChainCatcher: You mentioned that this year Sign plans to promote the Raas system in 20 countries, but there are always various uncertainties in toG businesses, including SignPass. What is the most challenging aspect of this process?

Xin Yan: Over the past year, we spent a lot of time communicating with governments, and after gradually reaching some phased consensus, the implementation difficulty was not as high as we imagined. I believe the most challenging aspect is finding the right timing and clarifying the actual significance of SignPass to the government.

This year is a suitable time for several reasons. First, Trump issued the TRUMP token, and most countries' attitudes toward crypto tend to follow the US's lead, which is clearly more open, so these countries won't have too many compliance concerns. Secondly, the market this year is relatively stable, neither overly rising nor sharply falling, making it seem more reliable to outsiders.

The most critical factor is that we have spent a lot of time deeply understanding the needs of governments and clarifying why they want to use blockchain instead of traditional Web2 systems. The Web2 system is very costly and restrictive for small countries. For a small country, using electronic payment systems like VISA or MasterCard may incur a 2% transaction fee each time. This means a significant portion of the funds circulating in the national economy flows to American companies, leaving very limited funds for the country, which may even be subject to reverse control. Therefore, countries like El Salvador have started to support Bitcoin, as they want to break free from this high-cost traditional system.

Governments want both achievements and profits, and the system provided by Sign can precisely meet their needs. By collaborating with us, they can launch innovative projects, attract new participants, and conduct PR to generate economic benefits; at the same time, if these new systems can truly work, they can also bring achievements to the government.

ChainCatcher: Sign's products seem to focus on how people can survive in a super-sovereign world/digital age. What is your personal or the entire team's product philosophy?

Xin Yan: This is a very fundamental question. As a founder, I need to think about what we want to do with all the money we've raised. What do we believe in? What is valuable in the crypto industry? Is it simply to create a fast and cheap public chain? That may already be outdated.

We see blockchain as a platform for distributing the highest quality services and assets. Most resources in this world are unevenly distributed. For example, people in the US and Singapore can have dollar accounts, but people in Africa, Vietnam, and Turkey cannot access quality assets through dollar accounts, and even good public services are unevenly distributed. Against this backdrop, we want to view blockchain as a new standard.

The new standard is like the ID system Sign provides for the UAE. When a person applies for a residence permit in the UAE, that residence permit will also become their KYC-verified stablecoin account, eliminating the cumbersome process of waiting to apply for a bank account after obtaining the residence permit. This means that in the future, people may no longer need to open traditional bank accounts; a government-verified account will be sufficient.

Blockchain itself is a newer, larger standard, and more and more countries and companies will align with this standard. Worldcoin is creating the world's largest on-chain ID system, and Binance has launched the BABT (Binance Account Bound Token) for over 200 million KYC-verified customers, all of which are on the EVM. If more companies and governments put their IDs on-chain, the EVM can become the greatest common divisor for identity verification across different countries. Based on this standard, cross-border identity and credit verification will become simpler.

In this super-sovereign world, not only can digital currencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum operate in a super-sovereign manner, but services can also be provided in a super-sovereign way. For example, in the future, there may be a company offering super-sovereign pension or insurance services globally. Compared to the governments of some small countries, these companies' credibility may be more reliable. Once people hold super-sovereign USDT or other assets, the feasibility of such services will greatly increase.

What we are doing is building the infrastructure for this super-sovereign world.

ChainCatcher: Recently, Sign and AGI House planned "the first-ever eternal contract signed between humans and AI on Sign." What is Sign's current attitude towards AI? Are there plans to integrate or collaborate with AI in the future?

Xin Yan: AI has been hot for over two years, and we have been thinking about the value of AI in relation to crypto. Essentially, crypto is built for AI because blockchain and smart contracts are digital systems that are inherently suitable for AI rather than humans. Humans are not good at remembering complex addresses of more than 20 characters or hexadecimal strings. Traditional systems, like bank accounts, are designed with humans at the core, but blockchain and smart contracts are more like tools tailored for AI.

Smart contracts can serve as a bridge to establish trust between AI and humans, as well as between AI and AI. Therefore, we are working hard to make all of Sign's smart contracts directly usable tools for AI. For example, we try to write our documents in a way that is easier for AI to read, and we design interfaces that allow AI to call them more conveniently. Currently, AI can perform operations like signing, issuing tokens, and distributing airdrops through Sign's smart contracts, such as our collaboration with Virtuals.

ChainCatcher: The improvement of US crypto regulations has led to the growing scale of RWA. How does Sign specifically serve RWA protocols?

Xin Yan: The core of RWA is to securitize real-world assets and place them on a super-sovereign platform, allowing global users to buy and sell freely. In this process, the key is to prove off-chain asset ownership to on-chain users. Our products, especially EthSign, have a wide range of applications in RWA scenarios. We have already served two typical major clients: Plume and XDAO.

First is Plume, which focuses on securitizing real-world assets and packaging them into tokens for issuance on-chain. In this process, whether it's before users purchase assets or when the asset issuer releases assets, agreements need to be signed, and these agreements are completed through EthSign. EthSign provides a platform that ensures the ownership of on-chain and off-chain assets is consistent and proves that the legal status of off-chain assets is recognized.

The second client is XDAO, which supports users in registering DAO companies. During the registration process, documents such as shareholder agreements and company articles are signed using EthSign to ensure the on-chain verifiability of legal documents. This service is widely used in international DAO scenarios.

ChainCatcher: Sign has developed many products, including ToB, ToC, and ToG businesses. How is the team's structure and energy allocation?

Xin Yan: Currently, our team has only 23 people. I have always hoped to keep the number around 20, but we are slightly over. Our core philosophy is to do one or two products well rather than spreading our energy too thin across too many things. As long as the core product development is solid, whether it's serving AI, ToB, ToC, or ToG, clients can use it directly without needing too much customization.

In terms of work methodology, we focus more on efficiency rather than forcing the team to do more. The key is to write good product documentation and interfaces while serving major clients and creating excellent use cases and case studies. This way, new clients can directly use our products through the documentation, reducing the time cost of communication for the team.

In terms of energy allocation, about 4 out of the 23 people are responsible for the development and operation of TokenTable, including OTC and airdrop-related businesses. The majority of the remaining members focus on Sign-related products, with most of the current development energy concentrated on the Sign App.

How to Build a Long-Term Community?

ChainCatcher: How did the decision to create the "Orange Dynasty" community come about?

Xin Yan: The topic we just discussed is somewhat aligned with VC narratives. In the past, we spent a lot of time trying to persuade VCs and serious media to prove the value of our products. This approach essentially flatters key individuals, hoping to attract retail and community attention through VC endorsements. Many projects spend money doing this. After all, in the past two years, securing investment from top VCs could quickly garner massive community attention.

However, at some moment in 2023, I suddenly realized that VC coins actually lack a community. The VC narrative is gradually losing its effectiveness, and projects relying on VC endorsements are finding it difficult to establish a solid foundation. In contrast, once a community matures, it can attract more users. As a founder, one must break free from the path dependence of relying on others and the mindset of "riding on the coattails of big shots." The real way forward should be to build one's own community and brand.

Based on this idea, we removed the "Eth" from EthSign and decided to be ourselves. After that, we began to build the community and clarify our culture. We realized that the appeal of a community does not solely depend on the product itself but also needs to make people feel "fun" and a sense of belonging. Just like SpaceX, although it is a ToB and ToG business, its vision and mission attract a large number of people who do not directly use its products.

Since last year, we have also done a lot of work to simplify our brand. Visually, we chose "orange" as the core element, as it is eye-catching and inclusive. Users can change their avatar background to orange without needing to change their profile picture to integrate into the community. The "orange glasses" element is also based on this concept, allowing users to easily combine their profile picture with their community identity without changing themselves.

ChainCatcher: It seems that more and more projects are placing greater emphasis on community building.

Xin Yan: This is not so much a new trend as it is a "cryptocurrency renaissance."

Since 2017, the crypto space has largely been hijacked by VCs, turning it into a VC-driven industry. Project teams are eager to showcase the founders' backgrounds and endorsements from large institutions. However, the key to a project's success lies in the community. As long as you have an active community and a circulating token, that token can find various application scenarios within the community.

For example, ETH—the Ethereum community has 500,000 users running clients, collectively maintaining a chain. Many tools and ecosystem projects, including Etherscan, are developed spontaneously by the community rather than being directly promoted by the Ethereum Foundation. As long as there is a community and a token, the community will create various application scenarios for the token. Of course, if ETH had handled governance functions better in the past, it might not be in its current situation.

Moreover, projects do not solely rely on the technical capabilities or practicality of their products to support token value. After all, no token with a market cap exceeding $1 billion is purely supported by practicality.

ChainCatcher: Sign has clearly communicated to the community that there is no farming, but there are still some incentive methods to unite the community, such as SBT. Could you provide a systematic introduction?

Xin Yan: Building a community is like designing a game; you need a system of achievements or badges to give members a sense of participation. Sign's SBT is similar to the role settings in a guild in "World of Warcraft," representing different roles within the community.

Currently, the Sign community's SBT is divided into several roles, each corresponding to different types of contributions:

Series Builder: This is the "Builder Guild," suitable for members who develop tools or products for the community. For example, one of our members developed a web tool that allows everyone to add Sign's orange glasses to their avatars. Some community members also create other interesting web pages and games.

Support Warrior: This is the "Supporter Guild," encouraging interaction among community members. We hope the community is not just a one-way communication from the team to members but also allows members to interact, like, share, and comment on each other's content, forming a true community network. The Support Warrior role is designed for those who actively participate in interactions, respond, and support others' content.

Content Creator: This is the "Content Creator" role, awarded to members who create content for the community, such as writing articles or making videos.

Orange in the Veins: Refers to members who actively participate in community activities and drive more people to join the Sign "Orange Dynasty" community through promotion and invitations.

If you make corresponding contributions in the community, we will directly issue the corresponding SBT, which will also record your name, symbolizing your "professional" identity in the community. Additionally, for those who want to join but currently lack time to participate, we have launched NFTs. These NFTs are suitable for users with economic capability but unable to interact frequently, and in the future, they can be converted into incentive forms similar to SBT in the Sign App.

ChainCatcher: Is the current standard for issuing SBT determined by administrators, or is there a system in place?

Xin Yan: In fact, we have a quantitative system behind the scenes, as the community has grown quite large. However, we do not want to make this quantitative plan public because once it is made public, many scientists will operate according to these rules and standards. If the first few thousand addresses are all "witches," the community will be doomed.

ChainCatcher: You mentioned in other podcasts that many of Sign's users are outsiders, so you purchased BTC assets as incentives for this group, while SIGN tokens are allocated to insiders. What are the specific considerations behind this?

Xin Yan: Yes, we purchased 100 Bitcoins as incentives for outsiders. Many of Sign's users are outsiders who may not be familiar with SIGN. However, BTC is a widely recognized asset, making it easier for them to accept and more appealing, and Bitcoin's price is relatively stable. Of course, whether it's BTC or SIGN, it's our own money. By the way, BTC is also orange.

ChainCatcher: How does Sign establish a long-term community? What are the plans after the TGE?

Xin Yan: I think the key lies in the design of the economic model, as this is essentially an economic issue. We need to continuously allow everyone to earn tokens by contributing to the network, rather than just issuing a token and continuously selling it to retail investors.

Our token economics is actually quite simple: 40% is allocated to contributors before the TGE, including the team, community, and investors. Half of the remaining 60% (i.e., 30% of the total supply) will be used for Sign App mining. We will design various ways to encourage users to contribute, allowing them to continuously receive SIGN token rewards.

Most projects may end their users' incentive methods before airdrops and TGE. We will try to create a more coherent system, where Sign's NFTs and SBT will continue to exist in the Sign App and be linked to future mining rewards.

ChainCatcher: What are your predictions for the current crypto market, and which sectors do you find promising?

Xin Yan: Predicting sectors can be a bit difficult, as the rise of sectors has a lot of randomness. For example, the AI sector suddenly became popular but then quickly cooled down; such phenomena are not uncommon in the market. I can share some insights and trend judgments about the current market.

Currently, the crypto market is a zero-sum game, with participants and funds being finite, and not much incremental capital is entering. The entire industry resembles a "Squid Game." A zero-sum market cannot bring about a real bull market; a bull market requires incremental capital and users as a foundation. For instance, last year's bull market was largely due to some projects bringing in new user traffic and incremental capital.

In the future, large projects dominated by VCs may face mass extinction, leading to a reshuffling of the VC industry. There is a term called "Tech Vaporware," referring to VCs that produce "air": they talk about a bunch of incomprehensible concepts, have extremely high valuations, but ultimately have no real value, and no one truly profits from them. For example, some Layer 1 projects have valuations reaching billions of dollars, but their actual use cases and profit models are unclear. Such projects will gradually be eliminated by the market.

I am more optimistic about the trend of the "cryptocurrency renaissance." In the future, the market will become more diversified, and community-driven projects will become mainstream, rather than relying on the voices of a few "big shots" in the crypto space. In the past, the core circle of the crypto space seemed to decide everything, but now different communities have their own cores. In the past few years, many public chain projects like Aptos, StarkNet, and Movement have actually been driven by the same group of people. Their funding and smart contract developers often flow from one chain to another, with a high overlap of community members. But now, Ethereum has its own core circle, and Solana has its own core circle. The connections between communities will become looser and more independent, but each community will become tighter internally, and the stories of cryptocurrency will become more diversified.

ChainCatcher: It seems that the Sign team is very good at storytelling, which may be greatly related to the team's work atmosphere?

Xin Yan: We indeed place a strong emphasis on the team's ability to express themselves. As I mentioned earlier, community building is more important than simply making products, and the core of community building lies in the output of culture and values. You need to tell stories to help users understand your vision and spirit. I particularly encourage team members to be active on Twitter, not just myself, but the entire team is very active, frequently sharing their thoughts and opinions. We encourage everyone to build their personal brand, which is beneficial for both personal growth and company development.

As for the work atmosphere, it can be summarized as "high intensity but full of passion." Our team is very "competitive," with a strong competitive atmosphere, fast work pace, and high pressure. However, this "competition" is not passive but is based on a high recognition of the company's vision. We only welcome those who are passionate about Sign. If you agree with our goals, even if the work intensity is high, you won't feel forced.

I now participate in at least one podcast each week, which is a requirement I set for myself. In this process, I am also organizing some of my thoughts and repeatedly honing my storytelling ability.

ChainCatcher: What does your ideal "new order" look like?

Xin Yan: In the past few years, the speed of change in the world has been very fast, and the global order is accelerating its reconstruction. For example, Ukraine quickly fell into chaos from a relatively stable country, with young men aged 20 to 35 almost suffering heavy casualties. After the war, this country may face huge debts, similar to how China was forced to sign unequal treaties after being invaded by great powers, paying reparations and ceding territory, with wealth being plundered. This history and reality deeply make me feel that the establishment of a new order is happening rapidly. If you do not actively participate in building the new order, you will be forced to accept the order imposed by others.

My ideal "new order" is a world where international organizations provide stable services: everyone can access financial services, identity verification services, and even visa services through Sign. In the future, I hope SignPass can become a globally recognized identity and visa credential, allowing users to enter any country with just one SignPass.

To achieve such a new order, the most important thing is to actively participate in the game. The new order is the result of multi-party games; if you do not participate, you will passively accept losses and become one of the "cut" parties. Therefore, I have always encouraged the team and pushed myself to clarify what future we want and then invest more resources to strive for it. Only in this way can we become a part of the new order and play an important role.